The Entire Abortion Debate in Two Signs

Is it just me, or are the worst people in politics, rather elected or protesting, a bunch of old white men? When these guys are gone, maybe the country will get some sense.

For the pregnant woman, it’s not an issue of whether or not she gets to live or die and at least she gets to make the final decision. The unborn baby who is being killed doesn’t even get a say in the matter, whatsoever! Not a fair, equal argument at all.

This is a ridiculous comparison. The signs insinuate that pregnancy itself is some kind of life-threatening illness that every woman has the right to undergo surgery for. Give me a break. Let’s have the discussion when 99% of unwanted pregnancies are the result of a RAPE, ok? Because we all know the majority of unwanted pregnancies are the result of “we just wanted to have a good time, the birth control didn’t work, the condom broke, yada yada f’ing yada.” How about if people grow up and acknowledge that having SEX is a serious act with serious consequences?!? And if you don’t want to have to deal with those consequences, STOP SCREWING AROUND!

To clarify, I meant the sign on the right…

If it were not for those old white men you wouldn’t have any rights!!!! and when “these guys are gone” you better hope someone will stand up for the same rights they stood up for! or your gonna be a slave to the big progressive gov’t that you sheep have helped start.

Why is it my business if a woman doesn’t want to bring a pregnancy to term? What is gained by a child being born into a home where he is not wanted, and his mom/parents are not equipped financially or emotionally to raise him? It seems to me that those who believe life begins at conception also belive it ends at birth.

Umm, when were we last invaded again? Oh yeah, that’s right, around 200 years ago. Old white men extant today DID NOT stand up for our rights. They did what they were told and if they are in at least their mid-80s then they were justified in so doing. I don’t do anything just because some ignorant spoonfed jingo suggests. The sheep here is you. BAA!

This old white man believes that this non-issue is a matter to be decided between some individual woman and her doctor and should never be interfered with by any government. That’s because this old white man is a conservative unlike 90% of the current republicans and probably two thirds of the teabaggers.

its saying if you haven’t been pregnant you have to room to talk about what another person you dont even know does with her own body. Are you gonna be the one that pays for the diapers or takes care of the baby when the mothre goes into depression about having the baby because that is very normal but you wont you’ll just complain about it and judge everyone else that doesnt want a child and chooses abortion as the best option for her and the fetus some people shouldnt be parents like me and until you see some real evil that can happen to an unwanted baby you shouldn’t even talk about it being wrong

These are the same white males that don’t want you sucking on the teet of America. Saying it’s not my responsiblity to help feed, clothe, and shelter that baby! But they want that mother to carry it til full term. They aren’t adopting unwanted children. They complain there are too many on govt welfare. For Pro Life, those fetus have more rights in the womb than they do outside the womb. That is the bottom line.

Wow. This is a VERY eye-opening photo. I think that these two photos are very simple in their message; yet, they also bring about the very complex issues involved with abortion. People think that pregnancy and abortion are so simple, but they are not. Also, there are many men that make ridiculous comments and posts, but they are not the person(s) that carry babies. Moreover, there are a lot of people that are very much removed from these issues. They’ve never had to face the decision of keeping a child or having an abortion. Remember that it is important to walk in another person’s shoes before passing judgment–especially if you’ve never had to make that particular decision.

I guess women should not be allowed to have an opinion on war and combat as men are the ones filling the ranks in the Infantry and Cavalry

Really what abortion comes down to is people who don’t want to grow up and accept that their actions have consequences. Why go through the trouble of giving birth to and raising the child I CREATED when I can kill it?

Being a parent (or even carrying and delivering a healthy baby to adoptive parents) is a huge undertaking. If someone’s not mature enough to be responsible about sex, would you really want that same person to be a PARENT?? I agree that young and not so young people do not behave as they should sexually. However, why should a child be punished for adults’ misbehavior? Isn’t it better for the fetus to get to go to God now? We all have heard the horror stories of unwanted, neglected, abused, battered, and murdered children. Surely it is better to die as a ball of cells than as a thinking, feeling, conscious, needy three year old.nIf someone has the guts to realize early in an accidental pregnancy that they are not going to be able to be a good parent, then I salute them for being able to realize that and do something about it.

Being a parent (or even carrying and delivering a healthy baby to adoptive parents) is a huge undertaking. If someone’s not mature enough to be responsible about sex, would you really want that same person to be a PARENT?? I agree that young and not so young people do not behave as they should sexually. However, why should a child be punished for adults’ misbehavior? Isn’t it better for the fetus to get to go to God now? We all have heard the horror stories of unwanted, neglected, abused, battered, and murdered children. Surely it is better to die as a ball of cells than as a thinking, feeling, conscious, needy three year old.nIf someone has the guts to realize early in an accidental pregnancy that they are not going to be able to be a good parent, then I salute them for being able to realize that and do something about it.

There is something basically wrong with this entire discussion. What does gender, age and race have to do with expressing an opinion. The man in this picture defends the unborn child while the woman defends her position for being pregnant. Why not back up to the “scene of the crime” the time of conception and task the man and woman for being responsible for their actions. Why is the responsibility of anyone else to pick up the bill for an act of passion. The decision to terminate a life is not an issue of inconvenience it is ending a life. It deserves to be addressed as murder … the child is not a wart or a pimple to just get rid of when you decide you have had enough. It is no secret that sexual intercourse has a chance of resulting in a pregnancy and if left to term a little boy or girl. Think about it .. if you are not willing to accept the responsibilities, or consequences as someone wrote, pull your pants and tell willie he’ll have to deal with being lonely n n

Nothing will ever change that woman’s life as much as becoming a mother. She deserves to choose when and if that happens.n Not just because she is sexually active, either.nWe can’t all be nuns and/or live under Muslim type law. Who would all the men have sex with?? I’m sure most of you have had sex with more than just the woman you married and before/outside of that marriage.

Excuse the “handle” but I blog on sports sites. This topic is much more serious and important . Points I wish to make:. I am a man and can not speak for a woman’s right to choose what to do with her body. I AM a human being and CAN speak to TRUTH. Abortions are performed too often, too late and sometimes for the wrong reasons. Before Roe vs. Wade abortions were performed too often, too late and for the wrong reasons. The difference… now it is safe and legal. In both cases people will “cherry pick” what they want based on their own beliefs or circumstances. Institutionalizing abortion has made it a “substitute’ for a) common sense in having sexual relations, b) not using birth control or the the improper use or lack of education about the use of the birth control. It is also used very legitimately to end pregnancies as the result of rape, sexual relations between an adult (someone over 18) and a minor with and without consent , early in pregnancy when birth control was not available or education was not there for it’s use or anytime the health of the woman is at stake.nIMHO this is not say that we should “promote” abortion as a means to an end. What we as a society SHOULD all be doing is “making abortions unnecessary” Especially to keep them legal but rare for the exception not the rule. Abortion is a rule of law, but not a rule of moral value. Everyone has a right to their own moral beliefs. In my case I believe that at conception a “fetus” is produced, not a human being. In fact even the Evangelical Christian Church does not accept a child as capable of “knowing Christ” until they at some point are “born again” at a later age. What conception is, in fact, is the “potential” of creating a human being. A Christian human being, a Muslim human being, a Hebrew human being, an atheist human being, etc., in terms of belief systems. What about the basic universal belief of not “killing” one another. If that is your moral belief, you can’t then turn around and justify or support war or capital punishment.nYou can claim that belief system expresses this as legitimate, but that can’t be applied as a “universal” belief. Society as a body CAN and SHOULD be allowed to do that in a Democracy. We don’t BAN cars because people get killed in them. We don’t put women in prison because the have a misscarrage. We don’t execute firemen/women if someone dies in a fire. What we DO is regulate activities to reduce or possibly eliminate bad thing from happening to us. In some cases bringing a fetus to term is a “bad thing”to do, and should be left to the woman, with our support for her moral beliefs as well as personal choice within the confines of society laws.

Your use of language is amusing if not absurd. The word “RIGHTS” was used as justification by the very same “old white men” under Natural Law to kill, exploit, rape, destroy, steal, lie, and ENSLAVE. nSociety has the “rights” in a Democracy to regulate through “civil laws” to STOP killing, exploiting, raping, destroying, stealing, lying and ENSLAVING . It’s called the judiciary.

Oh hey everybody. This is me, the woman in the picture, and I just wanted to tell you what happened. After 10 years of watching these men trot out these pictures and incite shame and fear upon the women who use the clinic, we decided to take back our neighborhood and show some support for Planned Parenthood. The message is just hearts and smiles and We Love Planned Parenthood, but I had to make a sign just to take this picture, to point out to the gentlemen that it is certainly easy for them to sit back and tell women what to do with their bodies and run the anti-abortion movement when they have not been hyper-sexualized from the time they were a child, given little to no information or resources on how to prevent pregnancy or advocate for themselves, be economically under-privileged, the victim of sexual assault and rape, and potentially be denied the right to a simple medical procedure that is as old and natural as time itself. If I was a white, old, privileged retired man who cared about women and children I would work to end poverty, sexism, hunger, and violence. “The reality that our society urges some women to have children and punishes others, limits access by lying and misleading people who are not aware of their rights, and devalues motherhood so obscenely while systematically denying women the resources to prevent it is one of the most complex and deeply embedded racist, classist, sexist and colonialist notions of our time.” Sfirah Marcos Madrone Thanks for getting fired up about it! All the discussion about this pic is really great. I love Planned Parenthood. I trust womyn. I do think the prattle between Anti-Abortion and Pro-Choice is a dead end. This isn’t about whether abortion is right or wrong, we may never agree, this is about Reproductive Health and Justice for all people. About everyone having access to safe medical information and resources. Love, ms. adams

I hope that at some point in your lives, each and every one of you experiences the liberation that can come along with these parts of of being human: nn*being a part of a family, by birth or by choice, that loves you and is capable of growing with you to meet your constantly changing developmental needs for safety and healthnn*having the answers to your questions about what is happening with your body, your brain, your heart, and the desires you feel for others, and the ability to access what you need to keep them healthynn* really great mind-blowing sex that is safe and that makes you feel ecstatic joy for days with a partner that respects younn* the experience of seeing someone be born, of watching and supporting someone you love become stronger than you have ever seen them be before and of being there to watch and care for a child in your lifenn* support from those around you to do what is best for you in your life, the confidence of others that you know what that is, and loving, unbiased guidance to figure it outnnIf you have already, protect it for others. If you haven’t, this is why Reproductive Justice issues are relevant to all of us, whatever our parts.

1) So, you believe that all babies who are killed before they come out of the womb of their mothers are going to Heaven? You believe that we can determine where our children will live after their temporary lives are over?nn2) I agree with your comment about whether a woman who becomes pregnant while immature and unmarried should be a parent. The solution is not killing the baby (and you should learn where the word fetus comes from). The solution is ADOPTION. For every ten babies that are available for adoption, there are thirty-three married couples who want to adopt.

Oh Robert. I’m sure you’d have similarly scathing (and completely cliche and ignorant, nonetheless) words for a man that fathers a child yet refuses to take care of it. Why judge men for their failure to meet the consequences of their actions when society makes it so easy to turn around and shame women for everything, eh? nnAbortion is a woman’s rights issue. You don’t have to agree with what I do with my body, but I’ll be damned if you try and legally restrict my right to choose.

Okay. So we’ll have a society where no one ever has sex unless they want a child and are prepared to support one. Because that’s worked out so well in the past, right?!?nnLike it or not, it’s human nature to have sex. If someone is having sex–ESPECIALLY if they’re doing it safely with birth control or a condom and their method fails–and they become pregnant, then they have a right to choose not to become a parent at this time.

Not everyone has the same religious beliefs about what happens after death, bringing religion into an abortion debate is pointless imo. We don’t live in a theocracy.nnAs for your remark on the fetus- just because the word “fetus” has etymological roots connected to the word “child” doesn’t mean that it’s factual that a zygote (which is the correct term [NOT fetus] for the fertilized egg in the early stages of pregnancy, the only stage abortion is even legal in the US) can be considered an autonomous being. nnWhere did you even get that adoption statistic? I’d like to see the source. The truth is that the US foster/adoption system is overflowing with children, particularly those that married couples seeking adoption “don’t want,” ie anything other than a white newborn.

I just don’t understand how a few people can make the decisons of a few million. It’s not your body, you’re not going through the painful decison of terminating a pregnancy. You’re not going to have to feed, diaper, clothe, etc. this child. You’re not going to have to worry about having enough money to support the family. It’s not you going through all of this, so just stay out of other people’s lives and try to live your own.

It isn’t a baby. It’s a zygote. A cluster of rapidly dividing cells with absolutely no cognitive processes or understanding of its situation. Does this mean they aren’t living, human cells with its own unique DNA that if given time COULD develop into a baby? Of course not. But it’s just plain bullshit and skewing of facts to call a zygote a “baby.”

“What does gender, age and race have to do with expressing an opinion.”nnUm. A lot. There are very few white males (or white females, to a smaller extent) that understand the privilege that they are handed at birth merely for being a white male, which makes it difficult for them to truly understand the situations that less fortunate people have to endure. Of course I’m not generalizing to all white males, but old guys like the one in this picture are symbolic of the white male in America that oozes self-righteousness and ignorance–which you yourself seem to have in high supply, considering that you actually have the gall to label abortion as “murder.” Humans have sex whether they’re prepared to have a child or not. Deal with it. If abortion bothers you, become an advocate for better sexual education in this country (aka NOT abstinence-only).

1) In 2007, Pope Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, a Vatican advisory panel, which said (in a report entitled “The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized”) that there were “serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision.”nnIt also said there were “strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the church.nn2) Source for your 10-33 statistic? That is highly questionable.

if you really think adoption is an option check this article. it’s got some eye opening statistics on just how many children require foster care and just how much money tax-payers spend to care for these unwanted children. please understand how irresponsible it is to make such a claim as “adoption is an option”.nnhttp://www.associatedcontent.com/article/50411/fcaa_foster_care_alumni_of_america.html?cat=48.

You MUST have meant that women AREN’T ALLOWED to fill the infantry and cavalry because a bunch of men made that decision for them too….

This cluster of cells is already moving it’s arms and legs at the time when most abortions take place. Hard to believe you say it is B.S. to call that a baby. I wonder how many women would go through with an abortion if they could actually see what they are doing? People are having abortions at 20 weeks gestation here in the U.S. Denying that this is not a baby is just ridiculous. Babies have survived at 21 weeks gestation.

In our country if a pregnant woman and her baby, fetus, zygote, or whatever you want to call it are killed in an armed robbery, the suspect will likely be charged with 2 murders. If the same pregnant woman would have went to the abortion clinic instead on the same day and chose to have her baby, fetus, zygote, or whatever you want to call it killed, that’s legal. If a premie is born and then killed it’s murder. But if the abortion doctor kills the same baby while it’s still in the womb, it’s OK? So in one instance the govenment says “It’s a life” and in another instance “it’s not”. How can you have it both ways?nI guess this is all about the mother’s “right”. She alone gets to decide whether the life growing inside of her (you can’t deny that’s what it is) lives or dies. We are sad society…..

I’m pro-choice.nHowever, somehow I think if all abortions were only carried on on *zygotes* (we’re talking *before* implantation there) there would be no debate except perhaps for Catholic bishops. Please to not use dishonest terminology.

Notice the is is a MAN who objects to a woman’s right to choose!? I propose holding a sign next to him saying “Who cares about prostate cancer??!!”

Get a grip. Your 2nd statement is grossly erroneous: a 10 week old pre-fetus is not human and definitely not capable of living outside the womb at that stage of cellular division. An abortion is not killing a living thing but instead expelling a multi celled organism not unlike a tumor or polyp: both contain DNA and the seeds of life but neither of which are self sufficient outside the host .

Fetal Development nFrom conception to birthnnnIllustration by R.K. O’Bannon Day 1: fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins.nClick photo to enlarge. nnDay 6: embryo begins implantation in the uterus.nnDay 22: heart begins to beat with the child’s own blood, often a different type than the mothers’.nnWeek 3: By the end of third week the child’s backbone spinal column and nervous system are forming. The liver, kidneys and intestines begin to take shape.nnWeek 4: By the end of week four the child is ten thousand times larger than the fertilized egg. nnWeek 5: Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop.nnWeek 6: Brain waves are detectable; mouth and lips are present; fingernails are forming.nnWeek 7: Eyelids, and toes form, nose distinct. The baby is kicking and swimming.nnWeek 8: Every organ is in place, bones begin to replace cartilage, and fingerprints begin to form. By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear. n n nClick photo to enlarge nnWeeks 9 and 10: Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop. The baby can turn his head, and frown. The baby can hiccup. nnWeeks 10 and 11: The baby can “breathe” amniotic fluid and urinate. Week 11 the baby can grasp objects placed in its hand; all organ systems are functioning. The baby has a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation.nnnnn n Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb. nn Week 14: At this age, the heart pumps several quarts of blood through the body every day.n nn

Wow…thank you for sharing that. I never thought of it that way. It is pretty sad.

i doubt that’s what he meant, but he has a heart for the unborn who are the product of lazy people who didn’t want to use protection to keep them from killing a new human being. Most women aren’t being raped, and sadly, thrre is no way to distinguish the difference, escept by the word of the mother.

That is just irresponsible. There are ways of preventing pregnancy, while still having a normal sex life. “Accidental” pregnancies do happen, but there are options available other than abortion, for those cases. nAlso, you say the woman deserves to choose, and I agree, but, excluding rape cases, a woman does get to make those decisions before getting pregnant in the first place. n

It’s everyone’s business what a pregnant woman does, if we can agree that abortion is killing a baby, rather than just removing a piece of unwanted flesh. If I knew my neighbor next door was trying to fight for the right to kill her three year old (or even just her dog!) whenever she wanted, I know I am not the only one who would make it my business and it would be completely socially acceptable, right? n nWhat is gained? Perhaps a better question should be what is lost in an abortion? I encourage you to look up survivors of abortion. Some very amazing people were supposed to be killed, but they lived! Adoption is a great alternative!nnNot sure what you mean by those who believe life begins at conception also believe it ends at birth?

There are actually quite a few people against abortion, but it is still legal, so not sure why you think we are making the decisions on this one. The reason we can’t just leave it alone is because we believe it is murder and if murder of already born humans was made legal, I bet you’d have a hard time just staying out of it, too, right?nI will not deny that it is a stinking hard place to be in for some of these ladies. However, adoption is a fine alternative to abortion.

How can you say that abortion is natural? If it is so natural, why the need to go to a clinic for a “procedure”? nAlso, do you know anything more about this man than that he is old, white and male? For all we know, he could have a whole house full of adopted children at home that he loves and cares for, hence his interest in preventing abortion. Or maybe he is fighting poverty, sexism, hunger, and violence as well. In the end, it seems like he is receiving the heavier load of unfair judgment than any of the pregnant women. nThere is much worry given to the lack of education about sex for girls/women, creating the “need” for so many abortions. But what about the education given them about abortions and the unborn baby? Are they truly made aware of what is taking place? Are they shown a detailed ultrasound of their baby, or whatever you all wish to call it? Do they get to see the bits and pieces of the little body after it is pulled out of them? Yeah. Probably not. They are most likely left in ignorance about all of that and fed a fairly biased explanation, coaxing them towards an abortion. If they were properly informed, perhaps the number of abortions would be less……nI agree with you completely on at least one point, Ms. Adams. It is definitely a dead-end and frustrating debate.

Children in Foster Care have been taken away from their parents not necessarily as newborns for whatever reason. If a newborn is placed for adoption immediately after birth, he/she will be placed in a loving home, no doubt about it. I know, because my husband and I have tried to adopt. It is difficult to find a newborn. All the older, “unwanted” children in the Foster Care system are an entirely different discussion, unrelated to the abortion debate, IMO.

Its easy to demonize sexuality when you’re not the one getting laid.

“In the end, it seems like he is receiving the heavier load of unfair judgment than any of the pregnant women.”nnWhat.

Zing!n

Really what it comes down to is you are a bad person. You probably agree with communism too.

“I know, because my husband and I have tried to adopt.”nnDo, or do not. There is no ‘try’.

The “is it natural” question is a red herring. It’s not “natural” to wear eyeglasses or get organ transplants. And childbirth is a medical procedure too.nnIt’s better to say that human beings have had ways to end pregnancies since the hunter gatherer days. Abortion is not some recent development like Twitter.

I was simply pointing out an inconsistency in his logic.

The “Entire Debate?” The absolute closure is so comforting.

The worst person in politics now is a middle-aged black man.

OMG you are sooooooooooooooooooooo RIGHT!!! Thank you for telling the truth!!! This what people need to hear and recognize. I totally don’t understand this “PRO-CHOICE” nonsense. What the hell do people mean by the woman gets to choose??? LISTEN PEOPLE: the CHOICE was made when you decided to have sex. You obviously KNEW that the result will be PREGNANCY. After that the CHOICE is to either KEEP the baby, or GIVE it to a loving couple that will take care of the child and give it a HAPPY LIFE. If you didn’t want to get pregnant or have a child, DON’T HAVE SEX!!! PERIOD!!!

OMG you are sooooooooooooooooooooo RIGHT!!! Thank you for telling the truth!!! This what people need to hear and recognize. I totally don’t understand this “PRO-CHOICE” nonsense. What the hell do people mean by the woman gets to choose??? LISTEN PEOPLE: the CHOICE was made when you decided to have sex. You obviously KNEW that the result will be PREGNANCY. After that the CHOICE is to either KEEP the baby, or GIVE it to a loving couple that will take care of the child and give it a HAPPY LIFE. If you didn’t want to get pregnant or have a child, DON’T HAVE SEX!!! PERIOD!!!

You say its a zygote. Not a baby. Just a cluster of rapidly dividing cells. Can I ask you a question??? What is a cell???

The same people who promote abstinence-only education tend to be against abortion. Thanks, but I’d rather educate myself and have control over my own body. Some people do carry the child to full-term and give them up for adoption if they can’t handle it. But you’re only considering one side of the story, and that is ridiculous. Put down your Bible for a minute and try to be a human being.nnThere are women who get pregnant who find out their child will be born with horrible defects, crippling them for the rest of their lives (I’m not saying that a person would love their child less, only saying that if a healthier pregnancy could be achieved later, it could be for the best). Or maybe they will be stillborn, or cause a serious risk to the life of the mother. Where does it end? You think it’s only lack of education that leads to unwanted pregnancy? You’re not including rape, either. Perhaps you should attempt raising a child that every day reminds you of a man who beat you and forced himself upon you. Or a child that has defects as a result of their mother being unaware of the pregnancy until months along, while she was doing drugs or drinking alcohol. nnThere are a lot more things to consider than just, “These women are uneducated”. I think you, perhaps, are the one who needs to be educated.

Stop trying to bring religion into a discussion which doesn’t require it. Not everyone believes in God, or your God, specifically. We are talking about man’s law, not a thousands-year-old book which was written in the time wherein people who had headaches cracked their skulls open to let the “demons” out.

That’s funny, I kind of thought it was a white woman from Alaska.

Why don’t you go tell women at abortion clinics that you will adopt their babies?

You don’t know what a cell is? Wow.

well said, ms. adams.

First, I am not the one who thinks that lack of education is ever a good excuse for an abortion. I didn’t take the time to list every single situation, but I was simply addressing the one aspect that I see frequently brought up, that girls aren’t being educated and this gives them the right to abort. I am not overlooking all these other scenarios. I was just focusing on one aspect. nI realize each case is unique and incredibly difficult. Not denying that. I have not been through every one of those situations personally, but have you? Why does that make me uneducated? In all of the examples you gave, my answer would be adoption, and if it is about the mother’s health, all I can say is, I’ve been there, nearly died of a pregnancy related disease, got a tubal ligation to prevent it from happening again, and I love my kid(s) like crazy. nnYour comment about putting down the Bible and acting like a human is not especially helpful to the debate. Are you saying people who live according to the Bible are less human? Whoa, where did that come from anyway? I have not even brought the Bible into the conversation, because I know it holds no weight in this kind of a discussion. But, for the record, I am a Christian and I live a completely normal life.

Settle down, friend. I was replying to the person above who had brought religion into it. I’m an atheist, and I never suggested otherwise. But being an atheist doesn’t have to mean attacking people for their religious views. I was simply trying to show our dear brother that his objection to abortion on the concern over the fetus’ soul was misplaced because the Pope had already addressed that. Notice I also questioned his statistics. nnMy bona fides as a pro-choice advocate are irreproachable, friend.

She already tried that. They wouldn’t let her because they were afraid she would eat them.

p.s. Muslim law is Sharia, just fyi. :)nalso, you can’t be a nun while living under Sharia law. . .two different religions. . .yeah.

You are fantastic, I love your argument. nI believe more extensive sex education would help, as well as if people (i find this is mostly true with women) weren’t shamed for having and enjoying sex.

people who believe life begins at conception are usually republican,nrepublicans usually try to cut money from the social programs that go towards helping low-income families raise their children, such as pre-natal care, nutrition program for women infants & children, head start program. They also want to cut availability to contraception. nAll of this says that we won’t give you a way to prevent pregnancy, end an unwanted pregnancy, we won’t help you while you’re pregnant and we won’t help you or your child after it is born. nnI’m not categorizing all republicans, but that is whats going on currently (or what conservatives are trying to do) with budget cuts.

You can have a baby with no instruments, anesthetic or Doctors. That is ‘perfectly natural’. Glasses, hearing aids and child birth are not in the same category. Try again Doc.

They need to learn some personal responsibility. Aiding and abetting their actions will teach them to continue.

Making abortion illegal never stops abortion. Birth control prevents abortion. The house voted to discontinue funding for birth control services. Where does this make sense?

Abortion is natural. God aborts over 50% before their proto-craniums contain anything but fluid — in fact mostly before they have proto-craniums. Maybe you might take the time to learn a little bit about fetal development. The vast majority of abortions extract something more akin to red goo than your dead baby fantasies.

What gives them the right to abort is that women are people, and fetuses are not. A person can feel, have preferences, create mental representations of experiences, have intentions, be aware, and yes, have a loving relationship with another human like you do with your children. A fetus is not a person. Your children are not microscopic balls of cells, nor are they reptilian things with empty crania — I hope.

Yes, it is a ridiculous comparison, because there is no “you” being killed. “You” is a term that refers to a conscious being with some capacity to be aware of and prefer its own existence.

I will say that I’ve known many women who had abortions and never know one who made the decision casually. I’ve also never known anyone who casually had unprotected sex and said, “If I get pregnant I can just get an abortion.” nnAt the most basic level, the disencentive for abortion-as-birth-control is that it is expensive. But the decision is far more emotionally complex than that. Almost immediately hormones start changing, and a woman who knows she is pregnant begins thinking about possible futures. She finds herself weighing the life consequences and wrestling with moral values and emotions while the fetus is still something a few centimeters big with the shape of an alien. nnI question the assumption that those women who treat reproduction so casually actually exist. I do think there are many women who convince themselves for one reason or another that they won’t get pregnant — or who simply don’t think about it. n

If it was capable of getting a say — or even formulating a preference — it would get one.

Kimberly — all of what you’re describing is designed to make the fetus sound more developed than it is. Just because, for example, there are a few cells that have differentiated to eventually form fingers doesn’t mean the fetus has fingers in any meaningful sense. Just because an almost microscopic bit of muscle tissue can contract doesn’t mean it can “frown.” Consider some information your description left out: nn Week 4: Size: too small to see, blastocyst (hollow ball of cells) like a microscopic raspberry nWeek 5: Size 1/16-1/8″ long. three layers – ectoderm, mesoderm, endoderm.nWeek 6: Size 1/8-1/4″ long. reptile shape w/bumps where limbs will be.nWeek 8: Size 1/2″. Shape: losing tail, gaining limbs. netc etc.nWeek 12: Size 2 1/2″. n

One of the falsehoods in your statement “the cluster of cells is moving it’s arms and legs” is that it implies centralized control with intent, neither of which is possible neurologically during first trimester. have you ever seen a newly dead animal having seizure?

Ever been in a car accident? Did you choose it by choosing to be on the road? Should accident victims be forced to live with whatever condition their bodies are in simply because they chose to drive or take the risk of traveling by automobile?

No, actually it wasn’t until some anti-abortion fanatics started pushing to change the criminal code that someone could get charged with double murder for killing a pregnant woman. In fact, in the Bible itself, the punishment for causing a woman to miscarry is different than the punishment for killing a person.

What you need to understand is that we *don’t* agree that abortion is killing a baby. And frankly neither do most anti-abortion advocates. How many people do you know who thiink we should do everything in our medical capacity to keep alive the tissue rejected during a misscarriage, like we would a newborn infant? How many people think we should pour millions into medical research so we can do this better? How many people do you know who think it a tragedy that God aborts 50-80 percent? How many people do you know who pray over, grieve over, or baptize dirty tampons from women who have unprotected sex– despite the fact that some significant percent of them have fertilized eggs on them. Get real.

Killing a fly is also ending a life–or say a mouse, which has many more of the attributes of personhood than a fetus (sentience, preference, intentionality, consciousness, etc.) We make decisions all the time to value some forms of life over others. That is a responsibility we have been given, and the power to make these decisions wisely is a gift.

I realize we don’t agree about whether or not it is a baby and, from the sound of it, we never will. I completely disagree with all the evidence you just spouted off about why it isn’t a baby and you completely disagree with all my evidence for the opposite position. So, what I am saying, from our point of view, it is our business because we do believe it is a baby being killed. I find it amazing that you actually seem to believe in God. You give Him credit for miscarriages. My response to all that is that God created the child and He and He ALONE has the right to take that life whenever He chooses. But the only reason I am including God in this discussion is b/c you brought it up. It is an extremely sad thing for many women to go through a miscarriage! I hope you aren’t belittling that.

The fact that it has arms and legs to move at all is good enough for me.

So you think it is okay to go kill off all the comatose people through out the world as well? Since they don’t have the mental capacity to care about whether they live or die?

Do, or do not. There is no ‘try’. nn@ Ian, if there are no more babies to adopt, then it is fair to say we are trying. We have children of our own already, and childless couples are chosen first. We will continue to ‘try’.

I don’t doubt it looks like red goo, especially after having gone through the suction curette, and getting chopped into pieces. However, many women who have miscarriages, even around 10 weeks, report being able to find and see their little baby amidst all the blood they lose. I am actually fairly studied up on fetal development, as I have four kids of my own, and kept up on it each time. Maybe you should spend some time studying up on the Bible and what God has to say about abortion, since you keep mentioning God in your posts….

The whole conversation goes away when you decide that the biological development is biological development, period. Obvious to your argument is when “life” begins, which is about when does a “soul” form. The Muslims believe ten weeks, I think. You, I assume, believe it is exactly when the genetic material is comingled. Interesting, but are not persuasive other than to you. If this is based on Sacred Text, such as the Hebrew Bible or New Testament, you’ll lose the argument. Anachronism is a problem for your position. They had no cellular knowledge, let alone germ theory- remember “bleeding” as a medical treatment. The text call semen “seed” for a reason. The woman is understood as incubator only, not provider of equal material. They saw semen as the full material for humanity, hence the prohibitions against masturbation- spilling your seed on the ground. Women in Scripture pretty much get traded like chattle- check your Hebrew texts of the Ten Commandments and you will find adultery is pretty much like poaching, and that theft includes women – so that their idenity as property over and against individual persons is lessen. The first creation story in Gen 1 is trumped by the second and completely different version in Gen 2 showing the more “conservative,” view, which ultimately gets all the buzz as far as human relations go.nnSO, claiming life/soul begins at the point of cells merging and doing what cells do best is empty without your peculiar albeit rampant biblical impression and therefore wholly inaccurate both from the internal logic of the texts and from the basic history of human understanding of conception, birth, women’s roles and basically eerything. Your world view only coinheres within the sphere of your personal adherance of a religious model which precludes external information – a closed system delibertaely impenetrable from any data with which it conflicts. I am not calling you an idiot. Just purposefully malinformed. I didn;t say I was any better, but I am telling you a truth about yourself.

Thank you for your response. A question for you…Was it murder for the Philadelphia abortion doctor and assistants currently in the news to deliver live preemies and sever their spines with scissors while they were struggling to live? If they would have killed the same preemie in the womb instead, that would have been legal. Does this make the people that are horrified by this fanatics? nnA thought…If an acorn falls to the ground, takes root and a shoot with a leaf on it comes up, is it scientifically (genetically) considered a tree even though it is an inch tall?

“Natural abortion” = a woman being kicked in the stomach for thinking about having an abortion in the first place!

Whatever happened to the OTHER “A-word”? ADOPTION!!!! Come on, people…These babies aren’t little inconveniences…They are HUMAN LIVES! In 2009, there were 65,000 REPEAT abortions in the United States. Currently, there are over 1.3 MILLION families seeking adoption. Infertile women have to sit by idle and watch teenage girls kill 2, 3, 4 children because they got loaded at a party while some football players ran a train on them. Let’s look at the BIG PICTURE instead of focusing on the short term.

As Americans, should we not judge the actions of the Nazi’s during World War II because we didn’t walk in their shoes and have to make the same decisions that they did? After all, we didn’t have the same challenges they had, so who are we to judge them for their decisions? At this point in time most of us are probably very removed from that situation as well. This is just 1 example of many. The premise of your argument does not support your position. At some point, whether it is based on your religious beliefs or based on just being a human being, some things are just wrong no matter how you look at it. Who are we to say who is better off dead or alive? That’s a frightening presumption whether you’re an aethiest or a fundamentalist or anywhere in between, because what if the majority at some point thinks individuals like you or I are expendable or inconvenient, or make other people’s lives more diffucult?

I for one am happy to have that man in the White House. It will guarantee Republican control for the next 5 terms! hahaha

I for one am happy to have that man in the White House. It will guarantee Republican control for the next 5 terms! hahaha

The old guy definitely has the more convincing sign… Would you rather be pregnant or dead?

The old guy definitely has the more convincing sign… Would you rather be pregnant or dead?

The old guy’s sign definitely presents a stronger argument… Is there a really a debate as to if you would rather be pregnant or killed? If you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex. Pretty simple.

The old guy’s sign definitely presents a stronger argument… Is there a really a debate as to if you would rather be pregnant or killed? If you don’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex. Pretty simple.

“Some times the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.” n – The Fray. nnI think this article makes a good point, but misses the their own point a little by only focusing on the faults of their opponent. The hard thing (and the right thing) for the pro-life movement to do is to stand behind pregnant women and foster-care/adoption agencies. At the same time, the hard thing and the right thing for women with unwanted pregnancies is to offer “reproductive health and justice” to their unborn child by letting them live. Just saying…

“Some times the hardest thing and the right thing are the same.” n – The Fray. nnI think this article makes a good point, but misses the their own point a little by only focusing on the faults of their opponent. The hard thing (and the right thing) for the pro-life movement to do is to stand behind pregnant women and foster-care/adoption agencies. At the same time, the hard thing and the right thing for women with unwanted pregnancies is to offer “reproductive health and justice” to their unborn child by letting them live. Just saying…

You’re right about one thing. If we could only agreed with your opinion about when life begins the whole argument would go away. The other way around would be more preferable, from my stand point. I am impressed that you know as much as you do about the Bible while holding to your views! However, you’ve taken a lot of stuff out of context. The part about Onan spilling his “seed” on the ground….it wasn’t wrong b/c they thought he was killing a baby, but only b/c he was refusing to do what he was told to do, which was to produce an offspring for his brother. You’re wrong about them believing the woman was just an incubator because there is reference to the seed of the WOMAN already in Genesis 3:15. Also, in the genealogies you find that there are some women included in these lists. You are pointing out a lot of cultural differences between us and them, I suppose to convince me that they didn’t know what we know today so we can’t learn anything about abortion from the Bible. However, if you believed the Bible and that there is a God, then it wouldn’t matter, because He doesn’t change and He is the Creator of life itself. But I was not the one to bring God into the discussion,because I am aware that my beliefs in Him hold no water in such a debate as this. I appreciate your politeness, but I can just as equally call you malinformed. It is all about your perspective of the other person. nMy argument, apart from the Bible about when life begins would be that there is no way of knowing, absolutely, for sure when the egg and sperm transform into a baby….for those who wish to nit pick about whether it can be a person before it is enirely formed. Why not draw the line at conception?

You’re right about one thing. If we could only agreed with your opinion about when life begins the whole argument would go away. The other way around would be more preferable, from my stand point. I am impressed that you know as much as you do about the Bible while holding to your views! However, you’ve taken a lot of stuff out of context. The part about Onan spilling his “seed” on the ground….it wasn’t wrong b/c they thought he was killing a baby, but only b/c he was refusing to do what he was told to do, which was to produce an offspring for his brother. You’re wrong about them believing the woman was just an incubator because there is reference to the seed of the WOMAN already in Genesis 3:15. Also, in the genealogies you find that there are some women included in these lists. You are pointing out a lot of cultural differences between us and them, I suppose to convince me that they didn’t know what we know today so we can’t learn anything about abortion from the Bible. However, if you believed the Bible and that there is a God, then it wouldn’t matter, because He doesn’t change and He is the Creator of life itself. But I was not the one to bring God into the discussion,because I am aware that my beliefs in Him hold no water in such a debate as this. I appreciate your politeness, but I can just as equally call you malinformed. It is all about your perspective of the other person. nMy argument, apart from the Bible about when life begins would be that there is no way of knowing, absolutely, for sure when the egg and sperm transform into a baby….for those who wish to nit pick about whether it can be a person before it is enirely formed. Why not draw the line at conception?

Actually they don’t because they knew whether or not they used the birth control they would get pregnant. If they used the birth control and it didn’t work, they should TAKE RESPONSIBILITY and take care of the child or give it up for adoption.

Um, excuse me. It is a baby. And even if you want to call it rapidly dividing cells, remember that the definition of what a cell is is the basic unit of LIFE. so it is ALIVE and its a cells forming to be a HUMAN BEING.

Do you really believe that’s how abortions start?

I am sorry that making a baby is the only reason you have sex.

Sooo… After being raped or sexually abused, a young woman should be compelled to go through the pregnancy just because some rich white couple didn’t get at it while they were young enough and healthy enough to produce a brat for themselves and aren’t willing to adopt one of the many (less than perfect or not white) babies that actually are available for adoption?nDo you ever even try to look beyond the tip of your own nose?

Even married women are very often forced into unwanted sex.

Even married women are very often forced into unwanted sex.

But would you also pay ALL her expenses? Including the future ones from loss of job/education opportunities while carrying the child, and the injuries she may suffer from the pregnancy?nProducing a child is not cost and risk free for the woman!

Ah, your true colors! Woman-beater! Why am I not surprised?n

Funny how it’s the MEN on this thread who are provng their anti-woman colors and being UGLY about it.

Oh man. You really proved everyone wrong! Because the only people against abortion are men! I mean some are women… well about 50% of the people I’ve met that are against abortion are men…but that’s besides the point!!!!nnOh, and there is nothing that I can do as a woman to keep myself from getting pregnant. Therefore I should be able to choose to kill end a life of another. I mean, that embryo had a choice! But me, as a woman, I have no choice!nnBy the way, it would be a good scientific study to figure out how women get pregnant. Because if we figure that out we could really simplify this debate!

You go girl! You totally showed that guy whats up! Because the only people that don’t like abortion are men! Well most. Well, maybe a majority, or at least almost a majority. Because like 50% of all abortion haters I’ve met are men!nnOh, and I, as a woman, have no choice as to whether I get pregnant. It is like, you know, out of my control…I mean that embryo/baby that I am killing, it had a choice. I mean, how else did it get there, right?nnYou know, I just had an idea. Maybe we should get like some scientific study that would like show us how women get pregnant! Because if we could figure that out, maybe we could end this debate in some way that NO ONE could have foreseen: allowing women who don’t want to be pregnant to not get pregnant!nnI’m a genius!!!!!

@NorunnnShe shouldn’t be compelled to go through the pregnancy for the sake of the infertile couple (why assume they are white?), but rather for the sake of another human life. Yeah, it’s a very tough thing for her, but so is having to deal with a demented, disabled, old family member. Should we just kill them too, to make life easier for us? BTW, there are many folks willing and ready to adopt non-white or imperfect babies, me being one of them.

Ever heard of women dying in childbirth? It’s not always easy, uncomplicated, or natural. Like glasses and hearing aids, help should be available. Until men can get pregnant, they should shut up.

Way to go sister I love it!

Florida Steve, first of all it is very obvious that you are a woman hater. First trying to limit her lawful right so an abortion and then it seems like condoning physical violence towards any woman who even thinks about abortion?!!! And I totally agree with Lisa and Rebecca, your true lowlife colors are shining through! And Norma, even though I’m male, I agree with you 100%, no male, be it a father, boyfriend or even a husband has any rights when it it comes to that woman and her wish to chose an abortion. Finally, some of you are advocating adoptions. First of all, I can’t see a rape or incest victim carrying what that violent act produced and what would be growing inside of her for 9 months, absolutely no way. Bottom line our Earth is overpopulated as it is. We cannot feed ourselves anymore! Between Third-World countries, some minorities and religions advocating the masses to “go forth and beget” we’ve over taxed the world, our resources and our abilities to tend for ourselves. Granted abortion isn’t the ideal method of birth control but it is yet one more option that possibly help stem the tide of overpopulation

So true Norma so true!

Yes Lisa he has shown what he is in living colors!

Very articulate and well said Kristina!

All you mem sticking your nose in other peoples business and being violent about it, Its not your decision wheather an abortion is needed or not. That is between a woman, her doctor and family. So sit down and shut up. Or maybe you all need to be castrated and given female harmones so a softer side of you can prevail.

so typical – an old guy who wants things to be the way they were when he was kid, representing republicans.

Ms. Adams…you should show your “love” for everyone, even those you disagree with. Regardless of your stance or his stance on abortion, you made quite a few judgments about him without even knowing him…many judgments that were racist, sexist, classist, you name it. Being white, old, and retired isn’t a crime, nor anything to instantly look down on. As for him being “privileged”…if you’re referring to him being a member of a certain class…it would seem that you’re from the exact same class…hence, by your logic, we can dismiss your protests because you too are “privileged”. (For the record, I think if you work for what you earn, that doesn’t make you “privileged”, but that’s another argument)nnPoint being, Ms. Adams, not everyone who disagrees with you is the bad, evil, ignorant enemy. Attempts to discredit the opposing argument by assassinating the character of the messenger is a a common, cheap, and transparent political tactic….one might say as old and natural as time itself. If this is how you want to frame the debate, fine….but don’t pass instant judgment and then berate those who do it to you.nnChris

That is foolish, many times you will end up both. Why is is okay to kill a woman who got pregnant? Look up entopic pregnancy.You must be a machine, a childless woman or a man.

If sex is so inconvenient maybe they shouldn’t be with their partner. Sex is an important part of a healthy relationship.

Haha, I hope you realize how completely ridiculous you sound, comparing a developing baby to a polyp or tumor. Or how pathetic it is that phrasing a fetus as a “multi celled organism”makes you feel better about people ending its life.

Thank you; couldn’t agree more!

It’s as fair to include religion in this discussion, as it is to claim that it has no place. nnAnd poor example, now people use guns and blow open their own heads and countless others, for no friggin reason. I’d say having a headache beats the reasons or lack there of, that people do stupid shit today.

Exactly. Becoming pregnant is a possibility regardless of the precautions taken. If people are ready for that outcome they are not ready to have sex. SIMPLE!

women don’t always have a choice when it comes to sex.

murder is murder whether in whole or in pieces, whether quilt is comfortable or uncomfortable…

Well.. 99.9% of the time (that is a real statistic, not a hyperbole), they do.

Being comatose and not able to care for ones self implies… correctly… that they had been at one time non-comatose and able to take care of themselves. Many people have “thought” about end of life issues and have “directives” to say what their wishes are. If they could make the physical decision to proceed to death rather than being kept “alive” by artificial means many may decide on that course of action. If you are a spiritual person, and you are comatose, your spirit may have “already decided ” to leave it’s worldly host, or even worse be waiting for loved ones to do as they asked. Using the highly charged word KILL is not appropriate

Right on Linda!! You ask why this makes sense. A curious thing is happening now, when it comes to our “so called” leaders. They are systematicly destroying our ability to halt our reproduction, so they can perpetuate a “permanent underclass” to serve them in the future. Reproductive, educational, social services are all being eliminated

Ending the life of something, is not the same as killing, otherwise everything that is alive would be included. When you shave, something we do to appease social vanity, and cut yourself, blood cells are exposed and die in the process. Are you killing those cells?, Are you ending the life of those cells? Scientificaly we are now able to genetically create and alter life from most all species, including the human species, from just one cell. The question should not be based on biology and Stop misusing the word KILL.

I am sorry to tell you this but we do murder( by my definition a willffull act to take the life of another Human Being) legaly in this country. Any we have being doing it since our country was founded. It’s call WAR. It’s called Capital Punishment. It’s called giving a drunk a drivers license and a 2000 lbs machine. etc

So, by your reasoning, the preemies delivered alive in the Philadelphia abortion clinic that “had their lives ended” with a pair of scissors while they struggled to live, had no more intrinsic value than the whiskers a man shaves off his face in the morning? Please directly answer this question rather than answering with a philosophical diatribe that makes no sense.nnThere have been some very prominent examples of people who held your views about life and humanity in recent history with names like Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and Hitler.

A real statistic from where? Your life? My life says otherwise!

Thanks Valerie ( from your handle I am making that assumption) for you rnreply. I went back to the thread to see what others where saying, and rnI was impressed by your other responses as well.rnYou are spot on as to the “real world” view of what is happening. The rndebate will always be framed in this way as well in the moral and rnlegal views as well. Being that I am a man, and I support the woman’s rnright to choose, I was wanting to frame my response in a philosophical rnway. In life I have struggled to do what I believe “right” all the rntime, based on my moral compass. It is enough to take care to steer my rnown ship. But it is my desire to not see our human condition in such rndisarray. I am an eternal optimist, but my mortal life is short.rnrnRon McMullin

Yes, it is these insecure males who have this need to CONTROL women’s bodies (and their satellite women who seem to have little or no sense of their own rights to their own bodies)….. that seem to be running this so-called ‘Pro-life’ circus.nSomehow the lives of the women have no value, only lumps of potential life have value to these sad males.

“It is enough to take care to steer my nown ship. But it is my desire to not see our human condition in such ndisarray.” What a beautiful, suscinct articulation of responsibility, humility, and compassion — all in two sentences. Those are great guiding principles.

I think that last sentence just made it clear that there is no point in answering your questions. You have your own answer. I can’t speak for Ron but I have no interest in talking to people who have already decided that I’m a sociopath on par with Pol Pot.

Ah, therein lies the rub. What’s good enough for you may not be good enough for everyone. Who made you God?

That wasn’t my evidence that it’s not a baby. It was evidence that you and other anti-abortion advocates also don’t really think a fertilized egg or a zygote or an embrio is a baby. When you start gathering, naming, grieving, and burying those dirty tampons, then I’ll believe you think a fertilized egg is a baby.

RESPONSE TO VALERIE TARICO nnOne thing has become very clear:nnYou do not want to have any direct discussion or take any specific position on the horror that happened in Philadelphia abortion clinic. You know that whatever you say will look bad for you.nnIf you say it was OK for the doctor and his assistants to deliver live preemies and sever their spines while they gasped to live, MANY people, even some currently pro-abortion people, will think you are a monster.nnIf you say what the Philadelphia doctor and his assistants did was wrong, you are acknowledging that the preemies had value as human beings.nnQuite a quandary for you Dr. Taricou2026u2026Nice how you were trying to use the Pol Pot statement as a u201cGet out of Jail Fee cardu201d so you could hide from the question.nIf you are so strong in your beliefs, take a stand, will you?nnI personally feel sorry for you because I sincerely think at your core that you are probably a good person who is hurt and broken inside, and this is your way of copingu2026.. Hopefully the religious people who read this will pray for you. I will.n

Abortion and miscarriage are not the same. nAbortion: an operation or other procedure to terminate pregnancy before the fetus is viablenMiscarriage: spontaneous expulsion of a fetus from the womb, esp prior to the 20th week of pregnancy

Eeehhhh…I don’t buy all of your argument…being white doesn’t mean you’re better off than anyone else, it’s not that simple. In fact in some countries being white would be detrimental. I try not to judge the quality/difficulty of a person’s life based solely on their color and I would urge you to do the same.

What a miserable old bastard in the photo.nnI’ll bet he hasn’t been laid in years.

I say any person that has a baby murdered by abortion should be put down the same way.

I hate how some people are acting like rape is an okay thing to do and that oh lets solve everything by adopting, it’s not like the women wanted the child so why should she have to face it especially if she is really young. You all seem like pro-rape, it disgusts me. I know it’s good to give children up for adoption and that it can help the people who can’t have children and i’m totally for that since no one should have to kill anyone, but i just hate how a lot of people are saying practically “too damn bad for the woman, have the child, doesn’t matter how old she is, just give it up for adoption everything will be alright. people gotta think of how this can be a traumatizing thing for women when it comes down to rape. If it was unprotected sex than it is there own fault and they should face the consequences and have the child, but if it’s rape, it’s just not right.

I feel sad for all the murdered children, but i cant help but think they would be worse off in the care of people who hold so little value for life. is an early death better than a lifetime of pain? i guess thats the question for me. its a nice thought to think that all the unwanted kids would end up adopted by responsible loving parents but we all know thats a pipe dream. and for anyone to say a man has no right to comment on this issue is just ridiculous, men are just as responsible for their children as women. if you want to have sovereignty over the child then give up your right to hold the father finacially responsible, .

ok, we will shut up till you take us to court for childsupport, good point. man hater issues much?

Abortion is NOT the murder of a child. It’s the ending of a pregnancy before a fetus has a chance to grow into a child.

God has nothing to say, because god is a myth made up in the minds of men. nMyths don’t speak and neither should men, when the subject is women’s reproductive health decisions.

I agree. Another thing that gives a woman the right to have an abortion is The United States Constitution…

… or a man being kicked in the head for getting a woman pregnant when he doesn’t want to support the child for the next 18 years!

Uhhh… I believe Sinelli said pre-fetus, which is, in FACT, a multi celled organism.

There are plenty of black babies available for adoption… try one, you’ll like it!

tell yourself what you need to justify it, thats not my point, the point is so many unfit parents and so many emotionally and physically abused children out there, I’m starting to believe its more of a mercy killing than anything else. i wish it were not so but it is what it is. its been going on since humans have been around and it will go on till humans are gone im afraid.

Two wrongs doesn’t make a right.

@ValerienWill you at least agree with me that purposely ending a pregnancy is quite a bit different than disposing of a tampon that may or may not have a fertilized egg on it? It doesn’t mean that we don’t believe a fertilized egg isn’t a baby. It just means we don’t see that it is necessary to grieve the loss of something we didn’t even know about. n

no its not just you there are plenty of other ignorant people out there ready to blame some other group of people for their problems.

untill that woman wants child support, then it’s the mans’ business,

I’m a woman…..a mother of four, actually. Do I get to have a say in women’s reproductive health issues now? About God being a myth, we will all learn the truth on that one when we die. I’d rather be wrong in thinking He is real my whole life and discover He is not than to think He is not real and discover a little too late that He is……

Yes, evidently there are plenty of folks who don’t have a problem destroying/killing/chopping up little bodies with moving arms and legs. It makes me wonder what type of person they must be?

And don’t be raped. You forgot that one.

I worry about the rights of fathers. If a woman wants to have an abortion in the wake of a consensual relationship, and the father wants to keep the child, how can his rights be protected? Conversely, if a woman wants to keep a child and the father does not, currently he has no say in giving the child up for adoption and has no escape from child support. If a woman keeps a child over the objections of the father, can’t he be freed from support obligations?

ASK YOURSELF ..IS ABORTION A GOOD THING OR A BAD THING? WOULD IT BE BETTER TO HAVE AN ABORTION OR NOT HAVE AN ABORTION? THAN STOP GETTING PREGNANT. YOU PRO ABORTION PEOPLE ALWAYS HAVE AN EXCUSE.’OH THE PERSON WAS RAPED” ‘OR THE TEENAGER DID NOT KNOW ANY BETTER” DO YOU THINK THAT ABORTION MIGHT BE JUST A LITTLE ITSY BITSY TEENY WEENY TINY BIT WRONG? DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE WANT TO STAND OUT IN THE COLD HOLDING A SIGN BECAUSE THEY JUST WANT TO BUST THE BALLS OF PRO-ABORTION ADVOCATES OR DO YOU THINK THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY REALLY BELIEVE THEY WANT TO SAVE A LIFE? COME ON PEOPLE WAKE UP.. AT LEAST AGREE THAT IT MIGHT BE EVEN A LITLLE BIT WRONG AND IF SO WHEN YOU HOLD YOUR SIGNS PROTECTING WOMENS RIGHTS PLEASE GIVE OUT SOME KIND OF CONTRACEPTIVE WITH YOUR OPINION. WHEN YOU LOOK AT AN ULTRA SOUND .. WHAT DO YOU HONESTLY SEE?

Everyone I am sure on both sides of the debate would certainly agree that rape is a horrendous crime with no justification that traumatizes women. It is irresponsible and totally unfounded for you to say that Pro-Lifer’s are pro-rape. A statement like that shows immaturity. Additionally, it does sound like you admit that the baby in the womb is a viable human being (who by the way had absolutely NO CHOICE how they were conceived and are therefore completely innocent ) But somehow you’re saying the mother can make the decision that the baby is better off dead because it will be a source of emotional pain for her. To somewhat use your own words, you are practically saying “too damn bad for the baby, kill it, doesn’t matter that it’s innocent, just end it’s life and everything will be alright.” To quote VALERIE TARICO in a response to ewjj in the string above “Ah, therein lies the rub. What’s good enough for you may not be good enough for everyone” (especially the innocent baby – Note: I added this bracketed text) “Who made you God?” nnVALERIETARICO – STILL WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE TO THE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PHILADELPHIA ABORTION CLINIC. DO YOU HAVE THE CONVICTION TO DIRECTLY ADDRESS THE QUESTIONS POSED TO YOU?nYOUR SILENCE ON THE ISSUE IS BEGINNING TO SHOW THE WEAKNESS OF YOUR WHOLE POSITION ON ABORTION. YOUR WHOLE ATTITUDE IS BUILT ON A FOUNDATION OF SAND. TURN BACK TO GOD, HE STILL LOVES YOU.

“Judge not, least ye be judged.” – Matthew 7

“Bits and pieces of the little body”n”receiving the heavier load of unfair judgement”nnFirst, you need to educate yourself on the abortion procedure. You no doubt have a scenario in your mind of a horror scene only Hollywood could produce. It is not a simple thing, and it is never taken lightly. Also, as some “bits and pieces” of legislature stand now, even something as natural as a miscarriage could be considered illegal. nnSecondly, the man holding the sign is providing the unfair judgement. He does not know these women. And has certainly never been pregnant and faced with some very real truths. It is his constitutional right to make his opinion heard, peacefully, just as it is a woman’s right to choose her own path. nnFinally, you express concern as to the information women have access to before making this choice. Planned Parenthood is dedicated to providing such information, as well as making sure women have access to screening to prevent cervical cancer, pap smears, STD testing, and to help low income families find affordable healthcare for all in need. Counselors are standing at the ready to answer any and all questions, and to provide therapy. This is not an in and out, black and white issue. nnIf you really want to find out what is going on, visit the Planned Parenthood website, or ask for information at an office. I hope this helps. It probably won’t change your mind, but at least you’ll have all sides of the argument.

For damn sure God shouldn’t have a say in this because of that whole SAPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE thing and that ABORTION IS STILL LEGAL. people are absolutely ridiculous, I honestly think my head might explode. nsure, adoption is an option, but there are SO MANY children who are not adopted every year. Why force a woman to have a child (9 months of discomfort and expensive doctor’s bills followed by a day of extreme pain, having to live with the emotional trauma of giving birth to a child and then giving it up to a life of likely rejection as an orphan, not to mention the physical changes that she will live with for the rest of her life after having a child) when she doesn’t want to? This isn’t a baby, it’s a collection of cells. When it can breath and move and eat all on its own, it’s a baby. A fetus is not a baby, and a woman shouldn’t have to put anything in or birth anything out of her own damn vagina. Maybe we should start castrating rapists, huh? Let’s see what you “anti-baby killing” morons think about that. not to mention that whole gay marriage thing. Let’s legalize gay marriage once and for all so they can adopt all the babies you don’t want aborted. Yeah, bet you don’t like that either. nKEEP YOUR LAWS OFF MY BODY AND YOUR RELIGION OUT OF MY GOVERMENT.

very few people get pregnant every time they have unprotected sex. it’s simple statistics. and some people still get pregnant even when they use multiple forms of protection. that’s why birth control only works 99.9% of the time. statistics are useful in this argument, especially if you’re only having sex to procreate. cause that’s just silly.n

we “kill” comatose people all the time. it’s called “pulling the plug” or “taking them off life support.” surely you’ve heard of it. you could try googling it.

the way those doctors killed those babies was incredibly violent and sick. abortions are rarely administered that way, so that comparison is simply irrelevant here and unrelated.

I’ve got a great idea– let’s pull out the “baby” from the womb and ask it if it wants to live or die. if it says it wants to live, we’ll stick it back in the oven. if it doesn’t respond or says it wants to die, we’ll abort it. gee, I wonder what the baby will do…

seriously. stop trying to restrict women’s rights. if you REALLY care about LIFE, go protest the WAR. and we’re legally killing people who have self-awareness and know what life is. now, really, which is worse?

When you get beyond the rhetoric and political posturizing there can be only one conclusion for the pro-choice movement. Ultimately the movement is applauding the choices of millions of women on their choice to commit a crime of convenience. We can say its because of rape, incest, impoverishment etc. Ultimately, the vast majority of abortions take place because the children would inconveience the mother.

“the product of lazy people who didn’t want to use protection to keep them from killing a new human being. Most women aren’t being raped, and sadly, thrre is no way to distinguish the difference, escept by the word of the mother.” wow, you’re ignorant.

if everything was left up to “god,” we wouldn’t have a medical system or that funny thing called “free will.” next time you get sick, you should jknow god is trying to kill you. how about that? yeah, don’t like it so much now do you. bet you’ll go to the doctor and defy god’s will. (see how ridiculous religion is when having a rational discussion?)

the baby doesn’t even know it’s alive. it’s a woman’s body, it’s a woman’s choice. el fin.nnand I responded to your philadelphia question. I feel confident walerie will agree with what I said. accept that as the pro-choice answer.

IN RESPONSE TO ALEXA HAYES:nnWhat happened in the Philadelphia abortion clinic is very relevant to this conversation, nbecause, as YOU admitted (finally! someone on your side is being intellectually honest)nthose were BABIES being killed. nnYou stated that u201cabortions are rarely administered that way, so that comparison is simply irrelevant here and unrelated.u201d nWhat is irrelevant is how they are killed. Whatever way abortions are administered, the result is the same:nA DEAD BABY. The ones that make it out of their u201cmotheru201d (using the term loosely) with nany life in them are quickly dispatched by the caring, compassionate abortion doctor.nnWhy donu2019t you tell us in step by step detail about the beautiful abortion procedures out there ndone by the good abortionists? Donu2019t forget to mention that the baby is dead at the end of the procedure.nnMay God have mercy on your souls! You are so blinded.n

Does a 1-day old newborn baby have full self awareness? Probably not. Ask them their name and how they are feeling. Ask them why they are crying. Probably won’t give you much in the way of a response. But they will instinctively go to the mothers breast if put in the vicinity, because they are hard wired to know a womans breast is to feed them, and they seem to have a natural comfort with their mother. So if self awareness is the criteria you are using, your train of logic would indicate that it’s OK to kill them. You can dance around this all day, but the bottom line is that in your hearts you all know it is a human being growing in the womb. Barring unforseen accidents of man or nature and if taken care of by their mother they will be born, grow through childhood, become an adult and likely have children of their own. In the majority of cases abortion is all about the selfishness of individuals who don’t want to be responsible for a child, who find the prospect of sacrificing for a child (although I always thought there was supposed to be a “Mother’s Instinct”) so they do everything in their power to convice themselves it is not really a baby so they can live with their decision to abort without losing their mind. I suspect Valeria Tarico falls into that category. I suspect that you are just a young person who is confused and thinks they have all the answers. Sorry, the way you speak gives you away. I know plenty of people like you. My child just walked in the room and smiled at me while I was typing this. I wouldn’t trade my child for all the convenience and self interest in the world. There are a lot of people praying for you all. God bless you.

IN RESPONSE TO ALEXA HAYESnnI suggest you do some research on the beginnings of the health care and hospital sytems, and the University system as well. You will find that they were primarily started by religious organizations. Ever wonder why so many hospitals, colleges and universities have “Saint” in the name? Except for a few obscure groups, most major religions believe God wants us to help our fellow man out of love (this does not include killing their babies), not sit around and wait for Him to divinely intervene in the case of evrey ailment.

There is a difference between judging an “act” and a person. Otherwise, why are there any rules or laws in the Bible or secular society? Maybe you should continue reading Matthew 7 where it talks about how even wicked parents would give their children good things when they were asked. Also where it says do unto others as you would have others do unto you. I don’t think aborting your child is giving your child a good thing or doing something you would want them to do to you. Sorry Michael. Please don’t try and use the Lord’s word to justify something as abhorrent as abortion. It just doesn’t work. It’s more important to live the Gospel than to be able to quote it. Do you really think God would expect us to be silent about the systematic killing of the most vulnerable members of the human race, babies? Ever hear Christ talk about children in the Bible. He speaks pretty firmly about His feelings about people who would harm them.

Like the statement above that there are millions of couples wanting to adopt, this is a myth. There are many many more unwanted children than there are people wanting to adopt. Qualified people who want to adopt a child have many to choose from and adoption agencies compete hard for their business. nnUnfortunately for all, many people who want to adopt are unable to because they’re not qualified. The biggest reason people don’t qualify is that they lack sufficient income.nnSocial service agencies everywhere struggle to keep up with the case loads of children being cared for by relatives when the parents are unable to. Most of the caregivers are grandparents and most are poor. Aging grandparents often have health problems to deal with in addition to the responsibility of raising the children. When the children become old enough to spend time independent of their family, aging parents are unable to monitor their activities or locations as younger parents would.nnFinally, a high percentage of adults who were raised by people other than their parents report being abused during childhood. While child abuse is of course not limited to adopted children, it is more prevalent in families where the children are adopted.nnIn a perfect world yes, there would be millions of families wanting and waiting to adopt all the unwanted children on the planet. But this isn’t a perfect world, and the reality is that the vast majority of unwanted children lead miserable, unwanted lives.

Yes, and not even many white newborns. Most adopting parents want lots of information about both of the genetic parents, which rules out children born to women who aren’t sure who the father is or who can’t locate him, as well as all the people whose genes don’t come up to snuff because someone in one of the families has had cancer, been alcoholic, or thousands of other conditions.

It IS taking responsibility to seek an abortion when you know you can’t care for a child!

Yes, it’s very hard to qualify to adopt.

Just don’t have sex, huh? People have been having sex since the first one walked upright, but it’s easy to stop, right? When humans are replaced by robots, maybe.

LOLOL!!! A great reply. HAHAHAHA!!!!!

What about those comatose people who are not hooked up to anything? I have cared for several of them. Should we end their lives too? They can be kind of an inconvenience…..

If they really don’t believe they are babies, they wouldn’t care if she ate them.

Do I know you, 87bgn? THANKS for all your great comments. It is very encouraging.

Well ya know what men put the whole burdon of birth control on the women. Why don’t men take some responsibility too and get a temporary vasectomy if they don’t want to pay the piper. It’s the old adage if you play you must pay. Too many men play and run.

there is a convenient generalization for your argument. “its my body, my body, my body. I have final say!!!! unless we are talking about sex, then its the bad bad men who tricked me and left me alone and pregnant!!!” i guess your old adage only applies to the male of the species. btw im not saying abortion shouldnt be legal, all im saying is this man hater rhetoric doesnt help anythiing.

i’m asking her what the definition of a cell is. i know what a cell is thank you very much so back the hell off…

I was asking her what a cell is which is the basic unit of LIFE and therefore the baby is alive. I KNOW what a cell is so YOU need to back the hell off…

I agree. If killing someone with a gun, knife, poison, or another way is a crime, then abortion should be made a crime, and people who committ it, should be thrown in jail just like all the other criminals. It is MURDER. there is NO other way to justfify it.

PLEASE tell them the way it is…What you are saying is the plain and HONEST truth.

Don’t suggest I hate men,,thats not true I’m only saying it is mans equal responsibility to help prevent unwanted pregnantcies. Just think if man kept it in his pants and women said no there would’nt be any problem, would there? Then maybe the focus would be on the real reasons, which are health, rape, and incest, the 3 primary reasons for abortions.

And I’m sorry for all the innocent babies who have been killed throught the selfishness of others.

you should reread your first post then, i wonder what you would have said if a man suggested women remove their genitaailia as an answeer to the problem

keyboard sticks sryn

It’d bad and good in both perspectives. They’re all doing it for a good reason. So you can never really decide which is better or worse. Both choices give logical reasoning as to why the other is bad. So it’s hard to say which one is worse or better for everyone.